Letm me be among the guys who thinks you’re right!  Keep ‘em honest metsgrrl.

I agree with you on so many points here; I love BLS and Yahoo Sports but this headline is (slightly) sexist.

Like you said, these bloggers were just trying to be funny, and I don’t think they meant to be sexist or misogynist in any way. But in a world where women are given pink jerseys as the main option of ballpark fashion (or Alyssa Milano’s clubbing gear) it’s not surprising when women in sports are disrespected whether it be Hannah Storm, Erin Andrews, or just female fans at the ballpark.

I have a personal story to relate about this kind of behavior. In 2008 I was at Shea with a few friends, including a Phillies fan. The guys behind us (also Philly fans) were making fun of an overweight woman a section over for being a Yankees fan, a woman, and specifically targeting her weight. Their comments got progressively more offensive as the innings went on.

Personally I was bothered but decided not to get involved. However, my friend (the female Phillies fan) proceeded to turn around and give these guys a well-argued smart smackdown about how inappropriate and sexist they were being and how their behavior reflected badly on all Phillies fans. Unfortunately, she wasn’t loud enough. So when one of the instigators started making fun and questioning her, I turned around.

I don’t remember exactly what I said but I know my tone was fierce and my words were direct and to the point. I questioned what their mother would think of what they were saying. How about their sister? Girlfriend? I admitted that we all hated Yankees fans, but to single out a fellow fan for being fat was hypocritical (one of the guys was big) and for being a woman was just wrong—and that despite being a woman and physically smaller, I would, (and I quote) “not hesitate to come up there and bitch slap you for being sexist asshole idiots.” I meant it. I didn’t care if I got kicked out of Shea.

To their credit, the guys quieted down immediately. After an inning or two, one lightly tapped me on the shoulder. He apologized, admitted they were out of line and asked me if he could buy me a beer. I told him that he should apologize to my friend, the Yankees woman, and buy us all a round. (He bought us several.) At one point, we had a conversation about what had gone on. He admitted that his sister probably would have reacted the same way I had and that he didn’t really think about how sexist he was being. We actually had a great discussion about it.

Female fans have come a long way in terms of getting equal respect as the guys, but there are definitely men and women who make progress difficult. Certainly the girl in the all pink outfit asking what inning it is has as much to do with negative stereotypes as the fans I encountered, bloggers and Tony Kornheiser.

Regardless, I sincerely believe that the majority of guys love and respect it when girls are sports fans. As I continue to get more involved with the Mets fanbase and the community of bloggers, I find nothing but respect for women from the majority of guys. I just wish that we’d be cheering on the fact that this 14 year old is going to spring training and had the guts to stop Evan Longoria in his tracks ather than assuming she’s on a manhunt. This philosophy should also extend to the adult women at Spring Training (although admittedly, some may actually be ON a manhunt.)

Thanks Meg!

I didn’t even want to get into the Tony Kornheiser thing. Because he’s just an asshat, and he’s an equal opportunity asshat. The issue there is really ESPN, and I am not interested in getting into that issue.

My point (which I hope I made) was just that casual comments can be internalized and interpreted and hopefully people will think about it.

Great post Caryn.

HardballTimes has a link to the BLS post, and the first thing I thought when I saw the title (without the picture) was some kind of spring training groupie.  It’s not at all an appropriate title to what’s going on in the pic.

The photo is just wonderful and really captures the innocence and excitement of her experience.  The title doesn’t convey that at all.

Once again, really well done, Caryn.

Why can’t the little girl just be falling in love with baseball? As far as the second picture we don’t know what was happening in the picture, maybe the camera caught her not looking at Zobrist, maybe it was because zobrist wasn’t really looking in her direction. Maybe Evan Longoria really is her favorite player, and she was more excited about getting his autograph. But why does it have to be spun in such a way that it seems to be about a girl liking a baseball player because he happens to be popular and good looking? Grinds my gears…

(I also posted this over at Hardball Talk)

I disagree a little. Yes, if that was a 12-yr old boy next to Evan Longoria with that look on his face, that would not be the headline. But if that were a 12-yr old boy next to Jennie Finch or Danica Patrick or Lindsay Vonn or Mia Hamm or Maria Sharapova with that look on his face, that very easily could be the headline.

That doesn’t make the two cases equal. Sports, sports stories, sports coverage, etc are dominated by men & boys, fathers & sons. A headline like that for a boy is 1 in a 1,000 or 1 in 100,000. Stories about girls and sports are fewer and farther between, so a headline like that carries much more weight. That’s how we should be framing this discussion, not whether we’d see the same headline for a 12 yr old boy.

I truly believe Dave was completely innocent in this. Maybe he even knew for a fact that the girl had a crush on Evan (it would’ve been easy to overhear that while taking the photos), so we can’t fault him or admonish him. Yes, the weight of the words should be explained to him, but nothing more. It was an innocent mistake.

I hope the conversation maintains it’s civility, and that no one takes offense at others’ views or words. It’s a delicate topic.

lar, I specifically said “I know that the guys who wrote this meant to be positive”. I said that I loved EVERYTHING about the article *except the headline*.  I don’t believe there was anything intentionally harmful in the choice of the headline. I even believe they didn’t mean to be sexist.

That doesn’t change that it was, and that it made me as a *much* older woman feel diminished & devalued. It was - “crap. it’s still always going to come down to this, isn’t it?” That was how I felt. This post was about my feelings, and offering a female perspective. Not about trying to get Dave fired. I didn’t insult him personally, or attach any negativity to his actions.

I don’t believe I was admonishing but I was certainly suggesting that they rethink it. I don’t think it was out of line to do so.

I’m trying hard to find what I said in here that was so incendiary. I think this is a really balanced post.

“Stories about girls and sports are fewer and farther between, so a headline like that carries much more weight. That’s how we should be framing this discussion, not whether we’d see the same headline for a 12 yr old boy.”

The internet is overflowing with women who write about sports whether it is professionally or just through fan-based blogs.  The fact is, many in the mainstream AND the not-so mainstream continue to exist in a vacuum where it is “odd” for a women to express an interest in sports unless it is related to her attraction to a man and the only time women get written about is if they appear on television or in print half-naked or if they complain about the way women are getting treated.  That’s why the discussion is framed around “would they use the same headline for a boy”. 

I didn’t read anything in this article that suggests Caryn is calling out Big League Stew or Yahoo.  She’s taking this opportunity to point out that what they probably consider a throwaway entry title has a much deeper and hurtful meaning than they had considered.

Caryn,

I don’t think you said anything incendiary. You were very balanced about it, and it was obvious you loved the article (save the headline). You were very obviously not writing to complain about or harm Dave. I just mentioned Dave because I didn’t want it to sound like I thought there was any ill-intent by him. Plus, we can’t forget that he was 10-20 feet away from the girl when it happened, so maybe his headline was informed by things we don’t know.

It’s just my two cents. I know how crazy some people can get on the internet over a thing like this, and it’s got to be frustrating to see people completely miss your point or ignore things you said. Good luck with the discussion.

To me, it seemed the author had far more of a crush on Evan L. than anyone in the picture:“Ohhhh, what a good guy he is for signing an autograph for someone when he didn’t have to!”

Assuming that’s not what he meant, though (and I won’t defend him with the standard “writers don’t write the headlines” line because, on every blog I’ve ever known, the writers do), I see your point. It’s especially disturbing reading this on the same day that Kornheiser’s indiscretion hit the fan. Just because a young woman enters the sporting arena, out of fandom or employment, that does not constitute a license to demean or stereotype. I’d like to think that, by the time that kid is my kid’s age, the world will be a better place.

Nahhhhh.

I couldn’t agree more.
Its very similar in the UK, as a kid i used to go to soccer games every week and get almost the same treatment by being asked which player i fancied the most. When i just loved sport in general.
Great post Caryn! from one mets loving riotgrrl to another! :)

That’s a well written, well thought out post, particularly from a Mets fan.  But, speaking as an academic-liberal type (and a Phillies fan) who’s generally prone to agree with these types of arguments, I raise two possible objections to your conclusions:  one, take a look at her face, it really does look like she is in love with him (which does nothing whatsoever to diminish her legitimate and respectable fandom); and, two, the word “crush” may just be semantic shorthand, albeit somewhat insulting shorthand, for exactly the type of devotion you showcase in the other two pictures.  It’s just that “crush” is semantically inappropriate for those situations, because of the genders and ages of the boys.  But, I’ve had a man-crush on Darren Daulton almost my whole life, and if you’d taken a picture of me getting his autograph ca. 1993, I would have had the exact same look on my face, and it would have been absolutely accurate to say I had a crush.

There’s also the fact that very very very very few women—possibly none—actually do have the kind of relationships with their teams and players that millions and millions of men do.  Maybe you’re the first, I dunno, I came over from baseballmusings.com, so this is the first I’m reading you.  I will be back though.

I’m tempted to just delete your insulting comment but it’s important that it stand so that the people saying “noooo, women have it so great, we are equal!” can see that there are still asshats in the world who believe, as you do, that women have no place in the ballpark or the dugout - or probably in the boardroom or anywhere else.

Men cannot claim that it is “okay” to use the word crush because they use it for themselves and then come in and say that it’s “semantically inappropriate”. While men can use the term “crush’ toward another man in a pejorative fashion it does not carry the same baggage as when men - from a position of privilege - use the term towards women. In both cases it is meant dismissively but again, when a privileged class uses a term towards a non-privileged class, there are additional layers and levels.

Obviously, I did look at the girl’s face, and obviously, I don’t share your conclusions, or I wouldn’t have written the article. Neither did dozens of people on Twitter (both beat writers and just plain folks, both male and female - although I realize the female opinion means nothing to you) and the people who commented here and the other places it was linked to.

“You’ll be back”? I could care less if you do come back because I don’t want people like you - who have such a dismissive, negative opinion of women in baseball - to participate this site. I don’t do this for you and I don’t need your permission or approval or endorsement to continue what I’ve been doing for the last five years and that other women have done longer than I have. I don’t need your endorsement to write about baseball or love baseball, thank god.

Like my headline says: sometimes it feels like we’ve made no progress at all.

Now, excuse me, I’ve got some bras to burn.

“There’s also the fact that very very very very few women—possibly none—actually do have the kind of relationships with their teams and players that millions and millions of men do.”

A real-life example of how your headline is spot on, Caryn.  How naive am I that this line I quoted genuinely surprised me?  I’ve lived such a sheltered life where the men I know treat me like a person and not like a pet.  I guess I should get out more.

The line that Cyn quoted also made my head explode.

If you don’t know any women who are as passionate (or more so!) as men about their sports teams, GET OUT MORE! We are EVERYWHERE!

Seriously, pretty sure my blood-pressure shot up just reading that comment.

Not only are we EVERYWHERE, we are all ages and generations. Go read the message board for the old Brooklyn Dodger fans - it’s at least half female. When I went to the exhibit about the Dodgers & the Giants, it was astonishing how many women were in the photos of the crowds at Ebbets Field. Cyn was making jokes yesterday about the nuns who follow the PawSox.

The author of the objectionable comment sent me a six-page response where he continues to allege that no woman’s devotion to her team has met his standards. I think that this is his problem, and not ours.

I agree its not our problem, although it is outrageous that anybody that thinks that the female gender does not contribute as much time and money as well as blood, sweat and tears when supporting a team that they adore.
Thats the beauty of this blog, i was so excited to discover Metsgrrl.com and then in turn to other Mets bloggers/tweeters that it made me feel totally inspired and validated.
I’m sure that a lot of women are put of by sports by being led to believe that “they will never have the same relationship with a team like millions and millions of men do.” When infact anybody can become passionate about anything.

Sorry, didn’t get here in time to grab that previous comment. Hopefully it didn’t freak anyone out.

This has got to be one of the most thought-provoking blog entries I’ve read in a long while.  Gender and sport is a rich subject indeed but it’s quite difficult to find any sort of opinion or commentary on it.  Fantastic work.

I write mostly to say that I was happy to see someone recognize that the most problematic areas in sports and sports coverage are in assumptions and a priori beliefs.  And yet such assumptions can be reproduced without any malice by the writer.  Perhaps that’s what makes it such a touchy subject for some.  I imagine there’s a lot of, “hey I wasn’t trying to be sexist, so back off,” especially in sports blogging and journalism.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is an age of equality and social acceptance. We live in an age where everyone has to be politically correct or face the wrath of the masses, yet this is the last frontier. Why does something like this go unchecked? It is because many still view women as the ‘weaker sex’. I must say, I know many women who are stronger and smarter than most of the men I know. One of the biggest fans I know, and one of the best bloggers I know is a woman. She can debate most men under the table, yet her contributions, sadly aren’t as recognized as some men who have half of her talent. It is unfair and must not be allowed to continue. Great post Mets grrl. Keep it up.

Wow.  I really liked that article.  I especially like that I can completely relate to it.  My first autograph was at Spring Training in 2008 and I was 14.  I remember everything so vividly.  And I really remember getting Joe Smith’s autograph.  I guess he is my equivalent of Evan Longoria.  It was just so amazing.  And I didn’t just love every minute of Spring Training because I could look at the players.  I loved it because it was baseball.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been left out of a baseball conversation because the boys won’t take the time to listen to a girl.  I hate knowing I know just as much as they do (and many times more) and still being left out.  It’s just so frustrating that baseball is shown as a sport for little boys to worship while the girls go and do whatever. 

I admit, I look at a lot of players for well, their looks.  But I am also drawn towards the catchers because I know they are who I can look to and see how they play, because that’s how I want to play on the softball field.  Just because a girl likes a player it doesn’t mean it’s because they’re hot.  The major league catchers are all where I wish I had the chance to end up.  Even though I know it would be a virtually impossible future.

I love baseball.  All of it.  Watching it, playing it.  Everything.
AND I’M A GIRL.

I will confess, I likely made the same face at Nick Evans when he signed my hat last year.

I was just so happy to meet Nick Evans. Love those left-fielders.

Look no further than the hundreds of retired women at the ST games with their straw hats basically coated in Mets pins, bueraucratist. Or, for that matter, the thousands upon thousands of very devoted female Phillies fans (I’ve had my share of run-ins). Or, hell, the Mets nerds like me who hit up Spring Training every year, who recognize those dudes who played with high numbers and nameless jerseys that end up on the roster in August.

I’d say it takes brass balls to be a die-hard Mets fan in Philly, but then, I’ve gone ball-free for years.

Who knows.

I want Evan Longoria to sign my hat, too.

GREAT article. I’m a girl. I’m a repair tech. And I’m a HUGE sports fan. Want to talk about Mel Ott? How about Bobby Orr? Or Johnny Unitas? Let’s talk sports while I take apart your MacBook Pro, repair it and reassemble it bringing it back to life. I grew up a sports fan, having participated in some sort of organized sports since 2nd grade. My daughters are sports fans. Sure, we think certain players are cute, just like guys find certain female athletes attractive (think Lindsey Vonn). But we watch for the love of the sport(s). And we cheer for our teams. Loudly.

Ha. It’s like my tech trade show days - even in 1996, I would be at the booth and a guy would walk up to me:
“I’d like to talk to someone about your product.”
“Sure, go ahead.”
“No, I’d like to talk to someone *technical*”
“Well, I helped write the patent, but if that’s not technical enough, let me get you someone with a penis.”

It is also the same thing for female music writers. Another area where I have fought this bs for years and years and years.

Headline unfortunate. If you read “The Bad Guys Won” (A tale of a great event in US sports)you will understand what it is like for someone to stand in line for a long time to get something signed. PS The guy went over to the dark side.